“All of Palestine”

09.19.05

Meryl has Hamas’s answer to those who dared hope that the Gaza withdrawal would be a step towards peace:

Hamas leaders vowed to continue fighting Israel as tens of thousands cheered and waved the group’s green flags and masked gunmen hoisted assault rifles, rockets and anti-tank missiles.

“We will not rest and will not abandon the path of Jihad and martyrdom as long as one inch of our land remained in the hands of the Jews,” said Raed Saed, a senior Hamas leader in Gaza City, using the Arabic term for holy war.

“We are celebrating our victory in Gaza and now we are headed toward Jerusalem, Nablus, Akko, Haifa, the Galilee and all of Palestine,” he said.

“Sharon, you should know that we will win – the only language spoken will be the language of weapons. We are young people who aspire to die for Allah and for the weapons we are carrying.”

Catch that language? Jerusalem (not “East Jerusalem”), Nabulus, Akko, Haifa, the Galilee and all of Palestine.

For the uninitiated, that means Israel.

I was cautiously optimistic at the start of the pullout plan, figuring that Sharon had a strategy and that this could at the very least break the stalemate and get Israel out of a region it didn’t want in the first place. I have to sadly concede that those opposed to the plan were probably right – not for religious or ideological reasons, but because it set a very dangerous precedent in rewarding terrorism.

Just when the violence was starting to wane, just as the Palestinians were starting to believe that maybe their approach was a mistake, the Gaza pullout handed them a victory to re-energize their ranks and start up the bloodshed all over again.

I’d hoped I was wrong about that. It sadly appears that I was right.

{ 50 comments… read them below or add one }

1 DaninVan 09.19.05 at 7:46 PM

My take on it is slightly different. Israel got rid of some hard to defend Real Estate (militarily as well as politically) and basically consolidated its territory. More importantly, they’ve put the Palestinians in the spotlight as being the intransigent, corrupt, lying, killers they really are. The EU will have a tough time making this latest little opera into something the European taxpayers will buy into. (…anything is possible, however.)

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2 Tré 09.19.05 at 7:57 PM

We’ll have to see how much the Palestinians agree with this.

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3 segacs 09.19.05 at 8:10 PM

And if the Palestinians elect Hamas in the upcoming elections, as is widely predicted? How will you interpret that, Hanthala? As a ringing endorsement of Hamas’s charter calling for the erradication of Israel? As a result of a woeful lack of options? Some combination thereof?

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4 Malia 09.19.05 at 9:34 PM

Where the hell is Palestine?

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5 Tré 09.19.05 at 9:34 PM

Some combination thereof.

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6 Tré 09.19.05 at 9:45 PM

Question though. Why is it you always react with almost palpable horror at the extremism of Hamas and yet do not even bat an eyelash when the very same extremism is heard from Israelis and/or their supporters?

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7 Tré 09.19.05 at 9:51 PM

I should add that the actualization of `Erezt Israel` can be accomplished by means fully sanctified by the Israeli government (home demolitions, expropriations, expulsions, increased settlement building, jail, torture, curfews, walls, grid-lock roads, monopolies on resources such as water, etc. etc.)

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8 DaninVan 09.19.05 at 11:29 PM

Haven’t we had this conversation before? Yes, I’m pretty sure that we have…
Ya’know, you’d expect Jordan to be the one hyperventilating about getting THEIR land back, but then you’ve already got an answer for that, eh Tre?
If these good citizens you speak of Tre, had any beef, it should be with the Jordanian administration. Oh, that’s right! Been there and done that —got slaughtered.
How come that never comes up in your “A Brief History of the Palestinian Question”?

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-09/19/content_3512631.htm

http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html

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9 cliff from montreal 09.20.05 at 5:12 AM

Tre(H) you said @ 09.19.05 – 4:50 pm ” and yet do not even bat an eyelash when the very same extremism is heard from Israelis and/or their supporters?’
Hey tre,question though.So tell me when did Jews march in the streets with guns and RPG’s wanting to blow themselves up in busses restaurants and schools using their kids as fodder and call for the extermination of the pali people? I will wait for the answer,tre!

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10 Malia 09.20.05 at 5:23 AM

When have I called for the mass murder of Arabs? When have I celebrated when Arab civilians are acidentally killed by the IDF? When have I supported the desecration of mosques? When have I supported the blowing up and beheading of Arab women and children?

The answer is NEVER! Tell me Tre, Hanthala, Randy McDonald or whatever name you’re using now, why would you make such an absurd comparision.

Are you an Arab or Muslim? If you are that would explain a lot.

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11 Lynn B. 09.20.05 at 5:33 AM

The EU will NOT have a tough time making this latest little opera into something the European taxpayers will buy into. Witness: the past 5 years. Witness: this.

Religious and ideological arguments have their place, but the bottom line here is, precisely, “rewarding terrorism.” To eliminate any doubt, both Hamas and Abbas have reiterated that theme ad nauseum during the course of the past month.

For true peace, many, if not most, religious and ideological disengagement opponents would reluctantly capitulate. True peace was never a part of this “deal.”

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12 Tré 09.20.05 at 2:08 PM

OK Cliff, I’ll humour you tioday, its slow here at work. You ask ‘So tell me when did Jews march in the streets with guns and RPG’s…’ If you mean Israelis, my answer is the IDF does it at the time when it rolls into camps or villages.

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13 Tré 09.20.05 at 2:09 PM

Malia/Golda, this isn’t about you. Put your head back in the sand.

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14 John Palubiski 09.20.05 at 3:53 PM

Tré, the Palestinian troubles are just a micro-cosm of the larger Islamic world. From Indonesia to Pakistan to the Sudan it’s the same story of chaos and mayhem.

Were Israel a majority Muslim country I wonder if it would even make any difference in terms of the violence.

Syria invaded Lebanon. The Sudan attacks its southern Muslims and enslaves them. Iran and Iraq had an 8 year war that killed millions. Bombs go off in Bangladesh and it’s a steady stream of tit-for-tat mosque explosions in Pakistan. On and on and on and on it goes……

Some cite oil, others cite “zionism” and others yet, colonialist *injustice*.

Most of the time, though, it’s just a case of brain rot….

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15 Tré 09.20.05 at 5:05 PM

Dan, your post couldn’t be better. You cite masada2000. They really support my point:

http://www.masada2000.org/cancerwithin.html

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16 Tré 09.20.05 at 5:13 PM

John, it is Israel that occupies Palestinian land, not the other way around. As for brain rot, there`s lots of it everywhere, including Israel (See post above). Extremism exists in all religions and will manifest itself differently and at different times given the socioeconomic context. In terms of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, both sides, through Hamas and Sharon for instance, are exploiting it much like Bin Laden. Sharon did not pull out of Gaza out of the kindness of his heart or in any sort of goodwill gesture towards the Palestinian people. Please, until he made that decision Sharon was one of the staunchest supporters of settlement (and still is, though in the West Bank). The move was tactical. Gaza is the Hamas support base. Pull out in the wake of Arafat’s death and hope that these two events combined fuel support for Hamas. This creates a rift in Palestinian society (divide and conquer). If it pans out, it also provides Israel with legitimacy for harsh reprisals (ie. civilian bombings) in Gaza.

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17 Tré 09.20.05 at 5:28 PM

Dan, I’m curious, that Masada2000 organization that you are so fond of: When they write of getting rid of the Arab ‘cancer’ in their midst, are they including Arab Jews or are these still acceptable as second class citizens?

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18 DaninVan 09.20.05 at 8:40 PM

I’m not “so fond of”; I introduced that link for it’s historical references, which I note you have (apparently) no argument with. Their Op/Ed piece on Israeli Arabs is a bit over the top when it comes to solutions but the basic premise is undeniable.
As for your question, I’m assuming you meant Arab Christians, as Israel has made a huge effort to rescue Sephardic Jews from Arab countries where they were subject to abuse and intolerance.
Have some of the Jewish Immigrant/ refugees from Islamic countries received an equally warm welcome from all Israelis? I doubt it; too much of a cultural disparity…we’re talking about people here.

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19 DaninVan 09.20.05 at 8:43 PM

Lynn B: geez, they could at least have had the decency to wait until this thread disappeared!
😉

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20 Tré 09.20.05 at 9:06 PM

I meant Arab Jews, Dan. I note your acceptance of masada2000’s basic premise.

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21 Tré 09.20.05 at 9:25 PM

‘Over the top?’ Its called ethnic cleansing. The page links to kahane.org. What John calls brain rot.
Real swell.

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22 DaninVan 09.20.05 at 9:26 PM

I’ll let our Israeli correspondant field that one as I’m not there to offer a first hand field report.
But as long as we’re on the subject of miniscule minorities:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/008203.php#comments

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23 Tré 09.20.05 at 9:27 PM

Dan, Arab Jews are not a minuscule minority, by any stretch.

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24 cliff from montreal 09.20.05 at 9:32 PM

Tre,H,
BUZZ, wrong answer as usual.
One gets the impression that it must be a real slow day on your planet every day and in every way H.
Still you manage to NOT answer my question.In fact, you did your patented mis-direction by bringing up the IDF (before it was Jews,Zionist Jews, Israelis and/or their supporters,then it was the Israeli government! Next it will be bald neo-cons or some big wheel in the sky wrapped in tin foil) So H, what is it? In the end sweetie, Jews do NOT march in the streets in masks waving guns, RPG’s wanting to blow themselves up in busses restaurants and schools using their kids as investment fodder and calling for the extermination of the pali people.Your racist side does, and everyday too.They/you have perfected the role of hate in a primitive backwards society.Good show H.

ps: Isreal do not occupy pali land..It is quite the opposite.Stop the lies, eh?

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25 Tré 09.20.05 at 9:39 PM

In the end cliff, the IDF, many if not most of whom are Jews, does march in the streets waving guns (and shooting too)- when they are not holed up in their tanks. Don’t call me ‘sweetie’ or I’ll have to add sexism to your racism.

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26 segacs 09.20.05 at 10:16 PM

Wow, did I ever mention how impressed I was by the level of discourse in these comments sections?

*sarcasm*

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27 Malia 09.21.05 at 12:45 AM

Tre,
You have singled me out before as an “extremist” Israeli supporter so don’t act innocent.
It’s hard to dialogue with you because you are so delusional. You actually believe that “Palestinian land” exists!
Golda Meir was a great woman so calling me Golda is not an insult.

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28 cliff from montreal 09.21.05 at 1:09 AM

OK, h you really are a child of saddam and that derelict galloway,eh? Here we go again, the racist terror supporter h calling the person accusing her of racism ‘a racist’! Really h, can’t you find another angle instead of your constant whining of victim-hood for your fraud cause. Eh sweetie?

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29 DaninVan 09.21.05 at 4:33 AM

Sari; feel free to jump in at any time, after all, this IS your blog…:)

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30 DaninVan 09.21.05 at 4:48 AM

I’m not familiar with “Arab Jews,” only Ashkenasi and Sephardic. Coming from North Africa doesn’t make them Arabs, any more than living in Quebec makes one ‘French’- Canadian. You’re either Canadian or you aren’t. Just my opinion of course.
Yes, the Sephardic Jews from N.Africa have had some problems assimilating into a European (Ashkenasi) cultural climate. So what? That’s the story of humanity in general; why should Jews be any different? We’re not perfect (ok, yes, I am, but then I’m the exception…).

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31 Tré 09.21.05 at 1:56 PM

Agreed Sari.

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32 Tré 09.21.05 at 2:09 PM

An Arab is someone who speaks Arabic, if you take the definition in a lingual sense (as Anglo-Saxon). Or, if you wish to define it geographically, you can say it is someone from the Gulf States, in which case, Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians, Jordanians, Iraqis, and Israelis, are not Arabs (Many of whom agree with this definition).

I wasn’t arguing that Israel, in its relations among citizens of different cultures is any different than say Canada, with the notable exception of what it calls its Arab citizens (as you see from the link from Masada2000). I was wondering if these Arab citizens they refer to as ‘the cancer within,’ include Arab Jews (as in Arabic-speaking). If not, then they should perhaps review their nomenclature (for clarity and consistency) and adopt the alternate definition of Arab. In which case, their ‘cancer within’ is their Palestinian citizens.

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33 segacs 09.21.05 at 4:11 PM

Culture is mostly about how groups of people view themselves. Jews from Arab nations don’t see themselves as culturally Arabic, they see themselves as culturally Sephardic.

As for the whole “cancer within” nonsense, well, I won’t deny there are people who believe that. Personally I think it’s racist crap and there are an awful lot of Israelis who agree with me.

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34 Tré 09.21.05 at 5:06 PM

OK, so if I take your argument that culture/identity is mostly about how people see themselves (which is the definition I espouse), then there are two consequences in terms of our discussions on this board.
1) The term ‘Arabs’ as used here is much too broad and does not accurately reflect the reality of how the people so describe see themselves.
2) (For Golda/Malia) Palestinians exist as a distinct and separate cultural identity.

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35 DaninVan 09.21.05 at 5:25 PM

Further to Sari’s and my Sephardic clarification, my Brother-in-Law is from Morocco, he’s Sephardic, went to Univ. in France and the US, and lived his adult life in Canada before emmigrating to Israel after retirement. He speaks Arabic fluently, as well as four other languages. He’d be R.O.F.L. if you called him an Arab. He no more looks Arabic (or Semitic for that matter)than T.E.Lawrence did.
You just don’t get it, Tre.

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36 Tré 09.21.05 at 5:31 PM

But here is a an answer to the original question:

‘According to opinion polls in the Palestinian territories, Hamas’ popularity stems from disappointment with the corrupt system of government of the Palestinian Authority, and not for other reasons.’

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/627244.html

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37 Tré 09.21.05 at 5:32 PM

Oh, I do get it Dan. I’m afraid you missed my point entirely as your last post reinforces what I said.

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38 Tré 09.21.05 at 5:40 PM

And Dan, what is an Arab supposed to look like? I’ve an idea of what you are saying, the stereotype is that of the looks typically found in areas of the Gulf States. But I’ve met many people who fall into the popularly-accepted category Arab who are blond, blue-eyed, and/or red-headed and freckled.

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39 John Palubiski 09.21.05 at 7:35 PM

Tré, things boil down to this: Israel, for all its defects and for all its errors of judgement, and those of the IDF, as well, is still the best darned place to live in the whole darned region!

You have two standards, Tré. On the one hand, Israel must be excruciatingly correct in every SINGLE interaction with the Palestinians, but the latter are given a free pass in their dealings with Israel because they’ve convinced a lot of the world they’re the innocent and passive victims of an unjusitifed and unprovoked “aggression”.

Isael is NOT perfect, but most of the onus is now on the Palestinian “leadership” to iron out the nearly intractable problemes that they themselves have created.

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40 Tré 09.21.05 at 8:18 PM

John:

Its the occupation, stupid!

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41 Tré 09.21.05 at 8:20 PM

Oh and put that in quotations (anyone know where the hell these are on a french keyboard????) so that the peanut gallery doesn’t freak and you don’t take it personally.

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42 Malia 09.21.05 at 9:39 PM

Jews were the first to be called “Palestinian” so there goes your description of being a “distinct and separate cultural identity.” Keep lying. That is what you do best.

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43 cliff from montreal 09.21.05 at 9:54 PM

Tre
You said”Its the occupation, stupid!”
Darn right it is.It was Jewish land from the beginning of time.What’s your excuse,eh?

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44 Tré 09.22.05 at 2:27 PM

‘It was Jewish land from the beginning of time.’

Obviously not.

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45 segacs 09.22.05 at 2:55 PM

“Beginning of time”… wasn’t it the land of the dinosaurs long before it belonged to the Jews or anyone else?

Hey! Humans are occupying dinosaur land! The horror – the horror!

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46 John Palubiski 09.22.05 at 4:54 PM

Tré, of course it’s Jewish land! That’s why the Romans called it Judea and, as we all know, the Romans predate both Islam and the Arab occupation of Jewish land.

Let me give you another example of how this concept works. There,s a country in Western Europe called “Ireland”. The world calls it Ireland because the people living there are referred to as “Irish”.

Ireland =’s Irish. Judea =’s Jewish

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47 Tré 09.22.05 at 6:30 PM

John, there is no need for your patronizing attitude.

As for the content of your post:

Hogwash, and you know it. If you want to continue with this line of ‘reasoning’ you are on your own.

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48 cliff from montreal 09.22.05 at 6:40 PM

Sari,
Opps.
I meant from the beginning of’oral and written history’, which is way before the fraudulent pali cause ever existed.But I’m sure the ‘fruitcake(s)’ in the upper reaches of the peanut gallery may disagree.

As far as ‘wasn’t it the land of the dinosaurs long before it belonged to the Jews or anyone else?’ My answer is.True, but if you want a present day example of the ‘land of the dinosaurs’ you need look no further than current pali society.

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49 Tré 09.22.05 at 7:33 PM

.I meant from the beginning of’oral and written history’…’

Still obviously not.

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50 cliff from montreal 09.22.05 at 9:49 PM

Tre..
No matter how you color the sky on your little planet, you will never convince the educated folks here or anywhere for that matter,that your arguments are valid.Just repeating the same old worn out tripe will not make it the truth.
Time to give up.You will never win.Period.

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