That’s one of those questions that people have stopped even trying to answer. But I wonder… why does nobody notice how senseless the marriage is between self-defined “liberals” and the “Palestinian cause”?
Why, when the Left claims to be for democracy, does it support an autocratic dictatorship over a free and democratic state?
Why, when the Left claims to be for women’s rights, does it support the Palestinians, who pay lip service to gender equity while still living in a society that doesn’t see very much wrong with “honor killings” of a woman who isn’t a virgin when she marries… instead of Israel, where women really do have equal rights in every sense of the word?
Why, when the Left claims to be for minority rights, does it support the Palestinians, who want an Arab-only state (no Jews need apply) instead of the pluralistic democracy that is modern Israel?
Why, when the Left claims to be for gay rights, does it support anti-gay discrimination as opposed to Israel, where (with the exception of marriage) gays have equal rights?
Why, when the Left claims to be for peaceful conflict resolution and against war, does it support the armed intifada and rationalize Palestinian suicide bombings?
How have the Palestinians become the media darlings of the Left, when only a few decades ago, the same idealistic people were rushing to Israel to go work on a kibbutz?
It seems like it should be so obvious as to be a no-brainer. And yet, from Europe to North America to Australia, left-wing groups, academics and student groups, unions and minority-rights groups are all rallying for the Palestinian cause of wiping out the only democracy in the middle east. Whether they claim to be for a two-state solution (but because they support the so-called Palestinian “right of return”, those two states are really both Palestinian), or a “one-state solution” (i.e. Jews as an oppressed minority in yet another Arab state in the mideast), they are, in effect, calling for Israel’s destruction.
Do they really not get it? Do they really have such a hard time seeing that the marriage between the Left and the Palestinians makes about as much sense as, say, the marriage between fundamentalist Christians and Israel? (Don’t get me started on that one…)
Because it seems to me that anyone with truly Liberal values would be first in line to support Israel. And even though this is hardly an original question, I think we ought to keep asking it until answers are forthcoming… until people realize that the motivations of certain groups are not what they may seem… until the Left has a crisis of conscience about its own habit of supporting murderous terrorists and dictators over democracies simply because it’s “fashionable”.
Sari — I am assuming this post is rhetorical. It is fairly obvious why support for Palestine (not Palestinians — we all support Palestinians Sari, even you) is a leftist cause. It has nothing to do with gay rights, feminism, or multiculturalism. It has a great deal to do with anti-colonialism and support for indigenous peoples. Among other things.
I am sure you see that. But if not, I can put down a longer comment for you.
Of course it’s rhetorical. But the “anti-colonial” excuse is misplaced. As is the “support for indigenous peoples” argument… but then, you knew that.
Puhleeeze. But you gotta wonder also why Israeli support overwhelmingly comes from the hard right.
Hanthala:What utter nonsense. All the people of my age that I know, that are somewhat Zionistic, are small ‘l’liberal or small ‘c’ conservative. That’s true of the vast majority of Canadians, whether they give a second thought to the middle East or not.
What you’re seeing is that very small % of the population that take the time to surf and read blogs. We are by definition ‘weird’…almost nerdlike.
I’ve been told this by many people.
On the other hand, incidents of antisemitism are making us MORE hardline. Arguing with us is counterproductive.
Danin, excluding Zionists (who can be both left on most issues and “Israel right or wrong” in their approach–ie. Sari), Israeli supporters are right of center. Those who tend to lean left might support Israel’s right to exist but also support the Palestinians’ demands for an end to the occupation.
That’s the problem of ‘labelling’. Making assumptions about someone’s political leanings based on one or two specific issues is presumptious.
I’m a strong believer in pro-choice re abortions. I’m also an aetheist, and have been for most of my life.
I vote for the best candidate in any election; I don’t give a damn who annointed them (just not NDP)…BUT, they only get one kick at the can. If they screw me around they’ll be dead and buried before I vote for them again. Any politician that lies (that would be all of them) should be charged and tried on felony offences. The system is so badly corrupted that I don’t think it can be fixed; there’s no will on the part of the Ones With the Power.
there! I feel so much better now…
Sari, you make great points about the hypocrisy of the (radical) left-wing in their support of so-called Palestinians and Islam. But I have to also point out that many liberals, like myself do support Israel for the reasons you cited about women and homosexual rights. Some of the most ardent supporters of Israel in the American government are very liberal, and not all of them are Jewish.
The root of why the far left-wing, most whom are Communists, support the so-called Palestinians is because of their hatred of America. If America supported the Arabs these same people would be supporting Israel. For some people it’s that simple.
Ikram, please don’t insult all the real indigenous people around the world, including myself! The people who are indigenous to Israel are the Jews. Just like the land of Oz “Palestine” isn’t on any map. Wake up and face reality!
Malia! Nice timing.
“Pro-Israel” and “pro-Palestinian” are often used in different ways. Is it possible to be pro-Israel in wanting Israel to keep existing and also to be pro-Palestinian in wanting a Palestinian state to come about or are those two ends mutually exclusive?
Malia, you still haven’t answered my questions:
1)Since the ancestors of Americans and Canadians were guilty of genocide, should that (have) stop(ped) Americans and Canadians from stopping analogous crimes in the 20th and 21st centuries?
2) Does israel have a divine right to declare war on Jordan and annex part of its territory since part of what used to be David’s kingdom is still in Jordan?
From the Nile to the Euphrates?
Malia: You say “The people who are indigenous to Israel are the Jews.” If you mean the descendents of the Jews who lived there 2000 years ago, I agree. Thing is, they include Palestinians (Christian, Muslim and Jewish). And if you want to go back that far, why not prior to that? I just don’t think this is really relevant. Oh, and out of curiosity. You call yourself a “real” native american. Are you also a Christian convert (you’ve said many times God gave this land to the Jews)? Just wondering because I know lots of other “real” native americans who have their own version of God and Turtle Island.
Albert, I was being rhetorical. I wanted to pointing the hypocrisy of the Arab/Muslims who always whine about the Jews and other infidels “occupying their land.” At the same time they have no qualms about immigrating to America, which was stolen from the native Indians. I don’t understand why they don’t immigrate to their real homeland of Saudi Arabia or other Arab countries.
Answer to your questions:
1. No. Everybody should speak out against genocide regardless of who their your ancestors are. I don’t hold my Caucasian friends responsible for what their ancestors did. We are all Americans and have to stand together against the Islamofacists who want to destroy our country. I’m an American Indian who is proud to be an AMERICAN!
2. Israel has shown it is willing to compromise for peace. Historical Israel should have included Jordan and Syria but they settled for a lot less land to make peace with the Arabs.
Hanthala,
What is the Turtle Island thing?
This forum has a word limit, would you be gentille enough to send it to voltinky@yahoo.com?
Hanthala, you are really confusing me! You say that “Palestinians” are descendents of the Jews who lived in Israel thousands of years ago? Then these “Palestinians” would be Jews wouldn’t they? I am talking about Arabs who falsely call themselves that to make it seem that they are indegenous to Palestine which is now Israel. What are you talking about?
No, I’m not exactly Christian even though I went to Catholic school for a few years. I have read the Bible and believe that God gave Israel to the Jews because of the overwhelming evidence that exists. Archeologists have found tons of Jewish literature and archeological sites that are thousands of years old in Israel, the West Bank, Gaza etc. That proves that the Jews are indigenous to Palestine i.e. Israel.
No! I don’t believe in the “Turtle Island theory.” I personally don’t know any American Indians who do. I don’t believe in a religion but I do believe in God.
Israeli supporters are right of center. Those who tend to lean left might support Israel’s right to exist but also support the Palestinians’ demands for an end to the occupation. Grin: Israeli supporters of what?
Malia,
Jews, according to you, have a God given right to the land, so are you in favour of Israel invading Syria and Jordan tomorrow? It has the military means to do it.
If God gives you land and it’s a commandment, that’s worth a lot more than peace. You don’t want to compromise on God’s will do you?
Malia ( saw you reposted after I replied ),
“I have read the Bible and believe that God gave Israel to the Jews because of the overwhelming evidence that exists.”
Based on archeological evidence? Based on that evidence, you can prove that Jews lived there but not that God gave land to anyone. Unless archeologists found a note saying “I give this land to the Jews – YHVH”
“I don’t believe in a religion but I do believe in God.”
If you don’t believe in a revelation of YHVH’s will as inscribed in a book ( religion ), how do you conclude that HVHY played real estate agent to his people? Archeologists don’t make theological claims about deities’ wills, it’s a bit our of their magisterium.
Turtle Island is what native North Americans call this continent. Its part of their traditional cosmology/theology. I took a trip up to Northwestern Ontario reserves last winter to check out clearcutting on treaty lands of the Iroquois Confederacy. Malia would have chocked to see the Palestinian flag flying next to the Mohawk flag! Anyway…I digress.
PS: Some native North Americans. I’m sure Malia wouldn’t appreciate if I lumped all Ameridian Nations into one as she does with “the Arabs.”
Malia; “At the same time they have no qualms about immigrating to America, which was stolen from the native Indians. I don’t understand why they don’t immigrate to their real homeland of Saudi Arabia or other Arab countries.”
I’d never considered the hypocrisy underlying that first statement; obviously, neither had they. Good point!
They can’t immigrate en masse, nobody will take them (don’t have to look far for the reason behind that).
“I’m an American Indian who is proud to be an AMERICAN! ”
Whew! You never DID answer my inquiry as to just exactly WHERE your lands were. The First nations here (where I live) are very successful; they own everything around here INCLUDING the movie theatre.
Hey! That last post was mine. Who’s this Anonymous guy that keeps taking credit?
I think you are all missing the real point. The left is not against colonialism, only European colonialism. The left is not in favour of indigenous peoples, only those displaced by Westerners.
The true solution is that the left is ANTI-AMERICAN – primarily because America, by its very existence, has essentially destroyed the utopian ideals of the left.
So, since the US supports Israel, Israel must be in the wrong. Or something like that.
DaninVan, my lands are in the American Southwest. You bring up a good point about how badly Arabs treat each other.
Albert, I do believe that Israel belongs to the Jews because of the archeological evidence that exists. I believe God gave them the land just like he gave my ancestors the American Southwest. It’s a spiritual thing that is hard to articulate. I’ve talked to several American Jews who have visited Israel and they describe the same emotions I feel when I’m in the land of my ancestors.
Hanthala, Thanks for stating that not all American Indians ascribe to the Turtle Island theory. Unlike American Indians the Arabs have the same the same language and culture. I’ve read this claim from Arab writers, and Arafat, who have said that wasn’t any difference between Arabs.
I would have definately gagged if I had seen the “Palestinian” flag next to a Mohican one. Just another example of the Arabs disrespecting indigenous people.
parallel, You are definately right about why the radical left believe the way they do. Their hatred of America is obssessive to the point of lunacy.
Malia,
“I’ve talked to several American Jews who have visited Israel and they describe the same emotions I feel when I’m in the land of my ancestors.”
Having strong feelings about a land means it was given by a deity to oneself? If you talked to Palestinians, many would have the same feelings about that very same land. From this, it does not follow that any deity gave them any land. That goes both ways.
” do believe that Israel belongs to the Jews because of the archeological evidence that exists.”
Again, how does archeological evidence ( ruins, walls, pots, tools etc ) tell us what a deity wants?
“It’s a spiritual thing that is hard to articulate.”= I feel it strongly in my heart but I don’t have any rational arguments to offer.
Malia; Oy vay!! My sister lives in Las Cruces, N.M. You wouldn’t be planning on expropriating any time soon, eh?!
Malia…it was the Mohawks who raised the Palestinian flag, not the other way around. Cheers.
It is clear that Israel exists due to military power and no other reason, certainly not G-d’s will or the Torah. It is a colonial power imposing it’s beliefs and values on the current inhabitants, atleast those that did not flee. That is why the Left stands against it.
You can print all the maps you want without the word Palestine on them, it will not change the occupation. You can claim how wonderful your beliefs and values are, they are still being imposed. Is it really democracy if it is imposed? Is it really freedom if you don’t choose it?